When I started reading the articles for this week I found myself feeling very defeated. I felt as if every page I read was telling me how difficult teaching is going to be especially in an urban setting. Then I got to the Yang article where I began to read strategies on how to emphasize discipline over punishment. I was very happy to read an article that did not try to oversimplify discipline and punishment with a list, but instead provided examples of classroom environments that are most common, while discussing the strengths and weaknesses. Whether you have a chaotic, repressive, liberal, or discipline classroom the simple answer is that it will never be simple.
As far as punishment versus Discipline. I have to be honest and say I would love to pretend that I will never employ punishment in my classroom, but I have no idea if that will be the case. I know that in the readings the authors talk about students losing valuable time in the classroom. However if I try to use discipline consistently over time and nothing else works, I will be forced to use punishment. From my experience so far being in the classroom, I do not see that being the case very often. I have witnessed that if I treat the students like adults, they tend to act like adults. Maybe this approach is over-optimistic, but I am willing to take that chance.
I never want to be one of those teachers who is so bogged down and burnt out from teaching that I go into the teachers lounge and complain that my students are animals (which is what I witnessed first hand). When it comes to classroom management, I feel students can tell when we do not expect them to act in appropriate ways. In other words, if we expect them to act up, they will be happy to prove us right. I am choosing to believe in the ability of my students in every way, and that includes their ability to discipline themselves with guidance from me. Here is a video with some tips from a teacher who I think is a little eccentric, and I would follow everything she says, but her attitude is wonderful in my opinion.
Great post, Quinton! This was the first week where I felt empowered by the readings rather than defeated, but I know what you're talking about. I looked at these articles as suggestions on how to handle possible classroom frustrations from teachers possessing more experience than myself. Ultimately, anything I do as a teacher in regards to discipline and class management is going to come through lots of trial and error. If I took anything away from the article that you mention, it was the part about the teacher sending the girl out of the classroom. When he sat with the girl and her mother, the student stated, "We could have handled it in class" (60) The teacher viewed this as a reminder that teaching is an "ontological problem" in his further quest on "learning to teach." I would also say that, hopefully, this incident taught the student a valuable lesson that it's a two way street to have a misunderstanding and she will change her behavior in the future to prevent the same mistake from happening again. Many times I view conflict as detrimental and uncomfortable not realizing I've learned the most from difficult situations.
ReplyDeleteWhen I think about classroom management, I too get a little nervous and discouraged.
ReplyDeleteOne of my biggest fears is teaching and in lieu of ‘not wanting to be mean’ I let students talk over me. I fear not having enough authority to be that strong teacher figure. Rather, I want to be their friend and I want them to like and respect me. But I think that’s exactly where the problem lies. I am not their friend or their peer, I am their teacher and I am there to teach.
I like what you write about treating the students like adults, in which in turn they act like adults. My own cooperating teacher uses this method. When the class was getting particularly rowdy, she stopped teaching and stated “Let’s have a discussion. What can we do to increase our productivity? I’m willing to meet you guys half way, if you’re willing to meet me half way.” In turn, the students stated their opinions, which gave them a sense of agency. They wanted to listen to music while doing their computer work. The teacher agreed to this, and the students immediately went to work. I think its best to set agreements together with your students, and clearly set expectations and consequences in the beginning. This way, you're not the ‘bad guy’ and work together.
Quinton, I enjoyed reading your post and watching the video you shared! It can indeed be overwhelming to think about how to effectively manage a classroom; however, something I find comfort in is that many teachers have been able to do this by creating an environment of respect. I have always told myself that I will manage my classroom through respect, and I have hoped that will be enough, and from the way it sounds, it will be. As the video you posted reminds us, students are human and they respond to natural human cues. If we simply treat them like the young adults they are and act like ourselves around them, then we are likely to get far in terms of facilitating an effective learning environment.
ReplyDeleteHey Quinton,
ReplyDeleteI love the idea that punishment and discipline should be thought of as two different things, and how the consequences of each should be dealt with accordingly. In the military, punishment and discipline are often thought of as interchangeable, and thus no distinction should need to be made when discussing each. However, as I have learned the hard way, discipline in the military is very different from what it is in the high school classroom.
I know you might be saying "duh," but the fact is that I learned how to manage a classroom in a military environment. The Air Force Academy was where I cut my teeth as a teacher, and it kind of ruined me in such a way that I had to start from almost square one in learning classroom management skills.
Teaching in an urban setting like Chicago definitely poses some challenges, but that does not mean that all of your time will be spent screaming at kids, and supervising detentions and suspensions. There are realistic, workable solutions to the many issues you might face in the classroom, such as the ones mentioned in the video you posted. Treating high school students like independent human beings is a great first step. By establishing that baseline of respect for your fellow student, then you will go a long way to establishing rules, and being able to consistently enforce those rules equally among your students.
Great post Quinton! I completely agree with what you have written and totally loved the video. I think that I will echo a lot of what has been said in regards to treating our students like adults, being open and communicating effectively with our students as well as the difficulties of wanting to be respected without coming on too strong. I think this semester; I have learned more about classroom management than ever in other semesters. Classroom management I think is something you learn from experiences, whether they are good or bad. As I have observed my mentor teacher over the last couple of months I have seen the ways in which she handles different situations that come up in the classroom. She too believes that if you treat the students like adults they always respond better. But she has also shared with me that this was not the way that she always handle things. She confessed yelling a lot when she was a new teacher and how exhausting and unproductive that was.
ReplyDeleteWhich brings me to a one of the points that the women from your video mentioned, modeling behavior. I think this is so critical because just like students need you to model academics, they also learn from you as a person. If you model, respect, openness, effective communication and honesty in your classroom, asking for your students to do them will be much more easy. I think that many times your classroom is a reflection of the way in which the teacher behaves in the classroom him/herself. If you practice what you preach it creates transparency between you and the students. I will end with a quote that Ms. Bey told her students a couple days ago that really resonated with me, she said: “You guys are not only a reflection of yourselves in the school, you are also a reflection of me!”
I have to agree with you Quinton. I have found that most students, not all, will act like adults and give you respect as a teacher if you give them respect as a human being. Too often adults resort to punishment because there is a feeling of losing control or grip on the situation and often it involves belittling people. The problem is that we often preach that students are soon to be adults also known as young adults but yet we still find ways to treat them as children. I think it is also important to recognize that people have bad days so that everyday is not going to be filled with respectful learning simple because we are human and life can get crazy bad sometimes. I think it is also important to recognize that it takes time to establish respect. It also takes skills to recognize that some students are acting out because there are outside factors affecting their behavior and so they are looking for attention and punishment is not the answer. I think it will take time to figure how we will run our classrooms and hopefully this respect thing will work out for the both of us.
ReplyDeleteQuinton,
ReplyDeleteI also liked the article by Yang and the examples that were given. Just as the video you posted where the teacher gives some strategies and she says that you shouldn’t yell at the students because you don’t want to lose your energy and there is no need to. I’m not sure how much power I will have in my classroom, but I would like to think that the students will respect me, just the way I respect them. I can’t say now how I will be because every situation is different and it matters that each student is treated according to the rules implemented, whether they are by me or by the school, so that way I could be able to act accordingly. I’m not sure what situations I will run into, but I just hope I will do the right thing and treat each student fairly. I still feel that classroom management strategies will work depending on the classroom. I’m glad to read more about the strategies and familiarize myself with different situations, but I think it would depend on the students and some strategies will work and some will not.
Quinton,
ReplyDeleteI could not agree more with your philosophy. I too am a firm believer in the idea that if I give respect I will receive respect and I think it is no different with our students. I too will go in with a positive mindset towards my students and be optimistic in hoping they will be great and respectful. In order for our students to respect us, we need to get to know them as much as possible. With getting to know them we learn a lot about what can be affecting our students' performance in the classroom. There can be many factors both internal and external. Each classroom and student is different, so I don't think there is just one perfect way to get the most out of our students. It will always be a learning experience for both us and our students.
Quinton,
ReplyDeleteGreat post. I agree that you should never expect your students to act up. It is an excuse for them to misbehave. You should only have expectation through learning for your students, and adjust what needs to be done if those expectations are not being met. Punishment and discipline can get out of hand extremely easily if not done correctly, and should not be the primary focus of classroom management.
Hey Quinton,
ReplyDeleteExcellent post. I understand how students may act like adults when treated as such; however, I feel that it is overly optimistic to believe no class in your teaching career will ever exhibit such misbehavior that you do not feel the need to punish them. The main problem I see with discipline or punishment to a class for misbehavior is that it can change the dynamic and they will no longer feel the expectation to act like adults. A way around this may be to express surprise or shock at their behavior and explain that you know they can act in a respectful manner.
I will definitely agree. The common discourse for students in urban environments is one that does not think to highly regarding their class behavior. However, the majority of students will give you the respect as a teacher to teach them new material. I think we have to focus on the structures and lesson plans we provide to ensure that students get the education they deserve. Although I would like to mention one thing as future educators, do not take any offense personal in a classroom. Students who act out will act out depending on your structure. Discipline sometimes means being firm in your class and having expectations that as a class we must reach. Great post Quinton.
ReplyDeleteI agree- I would love to say I would never punish students- but who knows what's going to happen, I have no idea what teaching day in and day out is really like. I am liberal in my philosophy and ideas about classroom management. I agree with the video- that I am teaching to facilitate learning, not to assume some authoritarian role. I believe, like you, that if we treat students with respect, and like adults, they will more likely do the same. And if they are acting out, I know that it is not personal, and I can respond like an adult and not an angered authoritarian. I have seen my mentor teacher do this: her class did not want to quiet down, and had acted like this for the whole semester, so she approached the class, asking what can be done to solve the problem. They responded that they wanted to work on computers, and listen to music. She was flexible, and changed some things around in her curriculum in order to allow them plenty of computer time and music, while still hitting their benchmarks and goals. Its about cooperation and compromise. What can we work out together so we can learn, together.
ReplyDeleteI like this strategy. It's way more productive than punitive, and ultimately leads to student achievement, like what Yang emphasizes. Cooperation and compromise are underrated these days...
DeleteHello Quinton!
ReplyDeleteGood blog. I agree that those first couple of articles made it seem like classroom management is going to be this very difficult thing. I also liked the Yang article. It did a good job of explaining the difference between discipline and punishment. I also think that what the Brown article said is relevant. That is, we need to build trust by developing personal relationships with our students, create caring learning communities, establish explicit rules and guidelines, be able to talk with our students, and be able to explain the need for those rules. If we are able to do these things, then we will not have to resort to too much punishment.
Great post Quinton,
ReplyDeleteI agree I think the image and attitude we have of our students and what we project onto them will result in them behaving accordingly, I like the video, I wonder what age/grade she teaches. I think your optimist realist view is great and I agree that often times the readings make it seem like impossible tasks that over complicate the simplicity of giving respect your students as people.
Quinton,
ReplyDeleteI think it is definitely important, as you mention, to have expectations of students, and students will act according to those expectations. It is also important like you mention to treat students like adults, and not children. From my observations, I have seen a lot of punishments given to students who are not behaving well in the classroom. They are taken away from the classroom and therefore taken away from the opportunity to learn and I don't think that's always necessary or effective.
Quinton,
ReplyDeleteYou bring up some very great points here. Students will definitely sense the way we view them in regards to how we expect them to act and if we believe they are capable of being being productive and successful students. In almost all cases, you get what you give. So, I definitely agree with your approach of treating students like adults with the expectation that it will be reflected back to you. This type of approach with students can help you level with them in regards to mutual respect and acknowledgement of expectations on both ends of the student-teacher relationship. Of course, as you mentioned, it will not always be that simple, but I do believe that students feed off of the attitudes of teachers towards them, so that would be one good place to start in terms of managing and maintaining a productive and connected classroom environment.
What a great and wise post, I really enjoyed the video it really makes great points that will definitely come in handy especially student teaching next semester. The good thing about having all these articles to read together is that it shows us the many perspectives of what classroom management is. I'm sure we've all encountered issues during high school that are relevant to what the articles state, but at the end of the day we have to make students want to learn without having any problems. It will be difficult to try to manage a perfect classroom but we should already know that there doesn't exist such a classroom. As future educators we have to ensure that we try and have a good relationship with our students and create a realistic adult environment that will hopefully result in students acting like educated adults.
ReplyDeleteI can totally empathize on not desiring to become one of those bitter lounge complainers! I think as far as the whole punishment vs discipline argument goes, that i agree, that it is hard to make claims on what we will do down the road as teachers, but as of now I feel as discipline is the route i would take. My goal would be for students to develop an understanding of what they did wrong. If this wan't the case then I wouldn't be doing my job. We shouldn't be disciplining as a way to cast revenge on students, but it should be in the effort to build their desire to learn.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Quinton. I have seen teachers talk about their students as kids and there is this sense of adult versus kid relationship rather than teacher versus student. Some people may not see a difference between those two however I am in agreement with you and think that hopefully if we treat them as adults, they will act that way. Even if they all don't, and we do have students who act like animals, why should we treat them in any way lesser than we want them to act?
ReplyDeleteQuinton! Thanks for your response this week. This weeks readings were very relevant to me personally and something I've been thinking a lot about since my learning segment. One thing that I want to say about punishment is that to me it isn't wrong and will be used in our classrooms at some point. I think the most important part of punishment is the relevance of it. It should connect to the act in some way and be FAIR. The second thiing that I wanted to bring up that I learned from my mentor teacher is taking as many steps to prevent the need for punishment as possible. For example don't sit the chatty student next to his/her friends, etc. Set students up for success and I think we'll spend less time worrying about punishment. This can only be achieved if we are the types of teachers found in Brown's article and actually get to know our students.
ReplyDeleteThe term classroom management scares me. I think part of the reason is the word management. Management to me equals punishment. When you hear the word management its something thats higher up and makes the final decisions, usually meaning someone is in trouble. High school students want to be treated as adults and punishment and management seems more of an elementary thing. High school students need to show and receive respect, but still know the teacher is the authority figure. I think this can be established by strict expectations (sent to dean, call home).
ReplyDeleteHey Quinton,
ReplyDeleteNice post! I also felt empowered by the Yang reading and his emphasis on discipline vs punishment. I like your suggestion of treating students like adults, to a certain degree of course, and it reminds me of the Pearson textbook "Classroom Management for Middle and High School Students" which is part of our assigned readings for an English methods course this semester. At first, I was super horrified by the idea of a Pearson book about discipline (I imagined all sorts of banal tortures that the book might suggest!). But to my surprise, the textbook mainly focuses on preventative measures that a teacher can take to avoid problematic student behavior.
Some suggestions of the textbook are:
a. Ask students to come up with what classroom rules are needed and why they are important... later, ask them to vote on these rules
b. Develop classroom routines and make conscientious use of transitions between activities.. apparently most problematic classroom behavior occurs during these transitions
I really enjoy reading the blog posts and the comments every week; sometimes I only look for the ones that I identify with and sometimes I am willing to change my mind. I think this week we all are probably on similar positions. I too believe students are more than capable to discipline themselves and if not they can be taught and guided towards this goal. I think we always need to consider who our students are and where they are coming from and what are the causes of their sometimes mistaken behavior. Mrs. Marasas, my mentor teacher from Tilden, made something very clear for me, that our role should be of calming and guiding students, never instigating them.
ReplyDeleteOn a different note I would love to revisit these posts after we are all teaching full time and compare how we have the same or different perspectives.
Hi Quinton, I have been observing this aspect very closely in my mentor teacher's classroom this semester. He seems to be actively employing the discipline versus punishment approach. I always thought I'd be a "discipline" kind of guy, but my thinking on that has been changing and evolving for years now (beginning with my years in Korea, where I observed Korean teachers..and corporal punishment was permissible and actively used.though the best was the Korean use of "Mom techniques" almost every Korean kid knew.. E..g hopping up and down while holding one's ears .. I dearly WISH I could use that one, but of course I cannot (culturally this was not a problem in Korea.. in fact.. in loco parentis was implicitly granted to teachers). But I have noticed that discipline over punishment is particularly effective in ":urban" classrooms. or better said. vastly more effective than punishment, which frankly rarely works. It worked for you and me, where we knew any issue would open up a can of whoopass at home but that's just not the way it works for most kids. I also had a discussion with a kid in the class who was butting heads with my teachers...and he confirmed my suspicion that escalation via punishment is likely to drastically fail.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately I cannot attach this, but enjoy the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIrhz-45CNk
do copy that link and click on it.. I guarantee you will enjoy it. And unlike what the guy suggests, these were actively in use (at least in my public school, as recently as 3 years ago). and I saw every single one of the punishments he portrays.. and he's also right.. the kids (almost always boys) kind of "enjoyed it" LOL
DeleteHey Quinton,
ReplyDeleteRe: your commentary that "I have witnessed that if I treat the students like adults, they tend to act like adults. Maybe this approach is over-optimistic, but I am willing to take that chance." YES! I think it is best to go into the classroom "over-optimistic" rather than to go in cynically or with low expectations. Why would we want to make ourselves suffer without need? I do agree that the articles with the exception of the Yang article were a little depressing/defeating. Now, re: that video you posted. I think she's spot on with a few things, namely exuding warmth and courtesy is essential. Also, focusing on individual students as much as possible, not raising your voice (why waste energy) and allowing students to think creatively and come into the classroom writing on the whiteboard are all good strategies for classroom management. These all involve/point back to giving students agency (a theme in our readings), respecting them, and treating them like adults. Some of her other ideas seemed a little vague, but I think she has the right spirit. I'll bookmark her video in addition to holding onto these other readings for my "Classroom Management Student Teaching Prep" file. Thanks for sharing!!!
HI!
ReplyDeleteI'm in agreement with your opinion on discipline vs. punishment. Furthermore, your mention of "expectations" is spot on. I think the higher the expectations we have of our students, the more often than not, they will meet those expectations. Students can read that. I know much of this is in an ideal world, and I realize things will not always be this way. However, why not allow ourselves to be pleasantly surprised by our students in giving them the benefit of the doubt and allowing them to form a working community in our classrooms?
Great post, Quinton! I totally agree on how our attitudes as teachers effect our students and their behavior. If we have low expectations of them then that's exactly what we will receive. It is important, however, to consider the students who don't act accordingly to your expectations and actions. Sometimes, punishment is necessary, since we don't live in a perfect world, however, I do agree that we should try our best to think nothing but positive things and have positive and high expectations about our students. What teachers need to do is stop babying students and treat them like young adults like the real world will do for them in a couple of years.
ReplyDeleteHi Quinton, just as everyone mentioned, this weeks readings are quite intimidating for the majority of us. What I particularly liked about your post was the video which for me resonated very well and which connected with me because of the emphasis on introducing a high rigor/consistancy which students will become accustomed to and which you as a teacher need to maintain in order for your students to get into that cycle. Will this work for every classroom? To tell you the truth I don't know, but its probably worth the try.
ReplyDeleteHi Quinton!
ReplyDeleteI am definitely on board with classroom management being at the heart of teaching. From experience and observations, every class is different. I do not believe that there are specific or correct strategies to discipline students. It all really depends on the teacher. I have observed teachers who just do not have control of their classroom, but there are others who do. From this semester's experience, I learned that not every teacher is capable of handling all students. There were periods that my teacher did not know what to do with certain students. All I can say is that experience and time will definitely show all of us what teaching is really about.
Your comment that "treating students as adults tends to make them act more like adults" strikes a chord for the Ranciereian portion of my academic, hell, my life interests and commitments: To engage in situations with the conscious presupposition of intellectual equality. In short, I do not think you are being over ambitious in your approach to treating students in the same manner that you would treat an adult; that is, insofar as you treat them all with the equal capacities to grasp the material presented, with the faculties for making sense of the work presented before them, I think that you are treating them as "adults" (i.e. as equals beings).
ReplyDelete